Taiwanese MBA applicants under performing?

[MarkHsu]

I don't know if it's just me, but it seems that Taiwanese MBA applicants have taken 5 years back in terms of the quality of admissions and also school selection?

True, top schools as a whole are offering fewer seats, but it seems that we have really qualified people going to tier 2 and tier 3 programs.

Is it because of a cost issue? Comments are welcome.

[Jason Lee]

My personal answer to this complex question is simple – being fit. If I may, I would use the following example to demonstrate my thread of thought.

I would picture that going to a top tier school is like driving a Ferrari or a Lamborghini while attending a tier 2 or a tier 3 school is like driving a regular car such as a Toyota (no offence to people driving Toyota). Granted, most people would agree that either Ferrari or Lamborghini is considered far superior to Toyota. Furthermore, driving in one of those fancy cars might well represent one's social status. However, what most people might have forgotten is the fundamental purpose of driving a car – delivering one from point A to point B.

The reason of attending an MBA program is to get from point A to point B in one's personal life. It depends on the circumstances of each individual. No one can comfortably claim that his/her life is just like a highway in Germany where there is no speed limit, and thus, the fastest way from point A to point B in Germany is perhaps to drive a Ferrari which enables one to go over 300 KM per hour. On the other hand, this person might perhaps live in Taipei City where a Ferrari runs about as fast as a Toyota does during a rush hour, and as a result the Ferrari cannot even go faster than 50 KM per hour. In addition, the fastest way to travel from point A to point B in Taipei City is possibly by taking the subway. In this case, one does not even need an MBA degree to accomplish his/her personal goal(s).

In summary, while going to a top tier school would generally be considered as a fast track of jumping from point A to point B, this method may not hold true for everyone. Furthermore, with an understanding on opportunity cost and trade off, people now tend to select MBA schools not only based on the tier systems, but also on other relevant factors such as personal objectives or the true return of investment. This is my take of the current MBA admission situation.

[MarkHsu]

Your points are well-taken and everybody has their own reasons for choosing a school.

BUT, the unfortunate reality is that the job market in Taiwan and the U.S. is getting worse not better.

-Shrinking positions at MNCs in Taiwan
-MA programs at foreign banks pay ~60-65k ntd/month.
-Top Taiwanese IT firms are paying ~45k ntd/month w/ limited stock grants
-unemployment rate in the U.S. is ~ 10%

It would seem to me that one's choice of schools should be even more careful against this backdrop.

a) Not getting an MBA is an option
b) Pursuing an alternative to an MBA
c) Going to a regional program, e.g. HK, Singapore, China & Japan, which is about 20% of the cost of a US MBA and is more generous with scholarships
d) Going to the English MBA program @ NTU & NCCU....it would seem to me that this strategy makes a lot of sense for stuents who did not attend NTU or NCCU as undergrads

[Jason Lee]

Thank you for giving some perspective on the current global outlook. I will first summarize your points and please correct me if I am off the track.

As it appears to me, your comments might have implicitly suggested that a reasonable person would be more likely than not to obtain more added-value or benefits by only attending one of the Magic 7 schools. By the same token, the value of a program in a non-Magic 7 school is likely to be the same, if not less, compared to a regional program overseas.

I think probably most students from non-Magic 7 schools (i.e., Duke, Indiana, Virginia, etc) would beg to differ this claim. We are human beings and our decisions are not based solely on cool calculated computations such as ROI. I tend to agree that going to a Magic 7 school would generally increase opportunities in any kind while minimizing unwanted risks. Nevertheless, choosing an MBA program is not exactly like selecting stock portfolios where only numbers are involved. People go to the US or other countries for whatever business and/or personal reasons. Thus, I have found it hard to believe that the Taiwanese students' underperformance is the only reason why there seems to have been a decrease in the pool of Magic 7 students in recent years.

Nevertheless, I do consider your points to be valid, which leads me to wonder whether it would be better for people to gain more experience before attending a globally-offered EMBA program (i.e., Chicago EMBA at London or Singapore), instead of pursuing a regular MBA from non-Magic 7 schools. At the end of the day, a Magic 7 diploma is hung on your wall; however, networking connections can be built even better since most likely only managers or above will attend EMBA programs. Comments are welcome.

[MarkHsu]

A few pts of clarification: not talking solely about M7 schools, i'd say 15 and above are the same....for example, Wharton is harder to get in than Cornell, but it doesn't necessarily mean Cornell grads will do worse....

Also, not saying that if you don't go to a top school, you are "inferior"....there are plenty of assholes at top schools.... = )

My point is the cost-benefit of attending a 2nd tier program for a Taiwanese student. You can easily spend 4m-5m ntd at a 2nd tier MBA program and have not much to show for

Granted ROI is not the only measure but if you are in business, shouldn't that be an important measure, especially for students who don't come from wealthy families and need to self-finance their MBAs?

[Jason Lee]

Your points are well taken and from a business perspective, indeed it does appear that choosing a top tier program would be an ideal and a logical decision.

I hope that Mark or anyone else could provide some thoughts with respect to the following questions.

1. As stated before, would it be beneficial to attend a top tier EMBA rather than a non-top tier regular MBA?

2. I think most people would agree that the tier systems apply not only to schools, but also to companies (i.e., Fortune 500 vs. non-Fortune 500). Furthermore, the tier system is probably even more obvious in consulting industry such as Big 3 (i.e., McKinsey or Boston Consulting Group, “BCG”) vs. non-Big 3. The current Harvard MBA class of 2011 has about 1,000 students. I am just wondering whether a typical Taiwanese student can really obtain competitive advantages in a campus job fair. Wouldn't it be more likely that a typical Taiwanese student could lose top tier jobs to other typical American students and thus, could only settle for the so-called second tier jobs in the U.S.? In this case, a second tier school might just be enough to do the same trick in terms of pushing students to “second tier” jobs in the U.S.

3. The facts are the same as in question 2, except now this typical Taiwanese student has switched his/her targets to top tier jobs overseas. In this case, for example, if this student eventually ends up at McKinsey or BCG in Taiwan, China or Hong Kong, wouldn't it be better in terms of ROI to have him/her attend top tier MBA programs in these three regions? A top tier Asian MBA program might also provide this particular student with an opportunity to enter big name companies in Asia.

[MarkHsu]

I think the fundamental problem in Taiwan is that there is a lack of professional opportunities so despite a very well-educated workforce, there is no pressure for wages to increase. I often describe it as "over-educated, under-employed." Also, domestic companies are unwilling to pay for MBAs. And by pay, I don't even mean 100k usd or 3m nt/yr, but even 50k usd (1.5m ntd/yr).

Re: #1: MBA vs. EMBA
I think they have 2 fundamentally diff purposes. In the U.S. and other developed countries, companies usually sponsor EMBA students. Essentially, companies are outsourcing management training to business schools. Unfortunately, there is no corporate training culture in Taiwan.

A "2nd tier" MBA makes sense if you know what you want exactly. For example, you see it as a stepping stone to working/immigrating to the U.S. and you know from day one that you are willing to working in accounting or some other type of corporate finance position. (But, I'd tend to argue that if you're that sure, then a MS in Accounting is probably even more effective and cost-efficient.) An EMBA won't help you get a job in the U.S. so if you fall under this category--seeing a US MBA as a pathway to your "American dream" than a 2nd, 3rd tier MBA works.

But, from my obeservation, few ppl this generation have that type of determination. Life is too comfortable in Taiwan (nothing wrong with that), so they usually come back when they realize it's too tough to find a job in the U.S. So the problem begins....what can you do with a "2nd/3rd tier MBA?" Reality is that it's no different from the other degrees people get.

So would a top EMBA makes sense? It depends again. For getting a job in corporate Taiwan, my guess is probably not. But, an EMBA gives you a "license to bullshit." Actually any MBA gives you a license to bullshit, but with a top EMBA, at least initially more people will listen = )

I guess it's a personal choice. But, if I knew ahead of time that the outcome for 2 diff paths in Taiwan would roughly be the same in terms of career opps, I'd choose the degree that at least would give me more prestige.

[khkchien]

interessting discussions.

Just out of curiosity, could it be possible that just simply the applications are getting so competitive that our students are failing to distinguish themselves?

[MarkHsu]

Sure, that's a possible explanation and it is probably the case for M7 + INSEAD/LBS.

But, I really don't think the rank 7-20 schools in the US have gotten harder. I think a lot of applicants may have just given up. If you check the boards, you will see a lot of 700+ GMAT scorers who have sub-100 TOEFL scores.

Perhaps the thread should be re-titled a bit to "thinking more intelligently about your school choice."