全美TOP 15 MBA--UVA Darden School 經驗分享會-01/06/2008 在台北!

[James]

All your points are well taken.

First, I already said Darden is a well respected school in the US. I have no intention to demote Darden in any ways.

Second, I only stated the FACT that most Chinese students found consulting jobs outside of the US soil. I have never judged on the situation.

Third, my intention was to explore our future chances of landing jobs. Sharing similar cultural backgrounds, I would greatly appreciate if Darden Taiwanese students would discuss their job hunting experiences. Involving your personal privacy, I would understand should you choose not to disclose it. An employment statistic could not simply satisfy my desire to discover the true Darden experience for Taiwanese students. Although job hunting experience may vary by individuals' cases, Taiwanese students’ performance and experiences provide the only evidences we could seek without being Darden students.

Again, my intention here is not to argue on the facts. I simply just want to know how Taiwanese students feel at each different school. Understanding this would definitely help me to clarify and minimize the gap between my expectation and the reality.

Jason

You don't need to focus on employment statistics too much since you want to know how Taiwanese students feel at Darden and other schools. It's easy to let others feel you criticize Darden giving "misleading" statistics. However, your concern will also happen in other top schools, not only Darden. Foreigners are not easy to get jobs from top consulting firms or other big companies in their US office I believe everyone on this forum, except for new comers, at least hear it before. You don't need to state it again.

Please focus on what you want to know more and ask some question rather than state some situations most people already know or hear before. Maybe you can come to join Darden's info session to have personal contact. It brings different feels from online discussion. Data provides the whole school situation, but not particularly for people from any single country except for U.S. However, how to use and analyze data is on your discretion. I beleive you have the wisedom to know how to use it.

[Jason Lee]

I apologize if I have accidently offended people here.

Again, I have already stated my intention. My philosophy is very simple. It is like buying a car. You do not want to only listen to those big TV commercials stating how great their cars are. Every car dealer could have sophisticatedly delivered the most astonishing commercials. Don’t you prefer to have some feedbacks from the real drivers? Furthermore, you don’t want those feedbacks coming from the U.S. or Japan. You would definitely prefer to have some local guys who fit closely to your profile to tell you how they really feel about certain cars.

Having said that, I hope I have clarified my intention here. Again, I apologize for misunderstanding, and I hope more current Darden students could share their experiences.

[donahue922]

Hi Jason,

我覺得你的出發點是很好，不過說法可能太讓人誤會。

Hi All,

我想我們把這個版面還給Darden好了，再討論下去有點太離題了，以下我分享一下從BusinessWeek中的BEST SCHOOLS FOR MANAGEMENT看到關於Darden的部分...

UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA - DARDEN
Darden doesn't have a management department per se, but it offers two academic areas that include management courses: leadership and organizational behavior, and strategy and entrepreneurship and ethics. Together, the two departments have 29 faculty members, who will teach about 30 courses in the 2003-04 academic year.

MBAs get a heavy dose of management instruction as part of their required first-year courses. Of the 10 core classes, four are related to management: "Organizational Behavior," "Ethics," "Strategy," and "Management Communications." The "Organizational Behavior" course helps students develop a personal model of leadership and prepares them to manage change at the individual, team, and organizational levels, says Darden professor James Clawson, whose title is area coordinator for leadership and organizational behavior. Darden also presents MBAs with a basic human-resource management model and "challenges them to be better managers of diverse workforces," Clawson says.

All of Darden's core courses are taught using the case method, which means students face the challenge of persuading others of their point of view almost daily.

After the first year, students can choose from 11 electives in leadership and organizational behavior. Among the most popular are "Personal Assessment & Career Strategy," "Leading Strategic Change," "Personal Leadership," and "Managerial Psychology."

Darden offers a dozen more electives in the strategy area, including such oversubscribed options as "Post-Merger Integration" and "Concepts in Corporate Strategy." Among the most popular strategy courses is a "Reading Seminar in Management," which is taught by John Colley, an expert in corporate governance and strategy. It attracts nearly 75% of the school's students.

For real-world experience, MBAs may also participate in as many as 10 "Global Business Experiences," in which groups of students accompany a Darden professor on a one-week, international trip. Students get a first-hand look at local economies and businesses in places such as Mexico City, Barcelona, Bahrain, the Czech Republic, and China.

To keep such programs up to date, Darden draws upon eight faculty members in its leadership and organizational behavior area and 20 in its strategy, entrepreneurship, and ethics area. Among its well-known academics are Lynn Isabella, an expert in managing global alliances; Martin Davidson, who specializes in managing diversity; and Erika James, who focuses on crisis management. The top professors in strategy include Colley, who has taught at Darden since the late 1960s, and R. Edward Freeman, who runs the school's Center for Applied Ethics.

[adrienphil]

Jason對台灣畢業的學生的就業statistic感興趣嗎? 那就讓你瞧瞧囉~

以Darden class of 2007的台灣學生(包括直接來自台灣的,或小留學生)來說, 也就是今年剛畢業的這屆啦, 在畢業前拿到數個offer的比例是100%. 平均的薪水嘛, 全部的台灣學生都有到學校公布的平均喔~

這樣有沒有回答你的問題呢?

不過我覺得這個數據還是很misleading啦, 每一屆有每一屆不同的表現, 其實也是因為大家對工作的選擇不同, 有人堅持要在美國, 也有人完全不找工作一心想回台灣. 就像之前Mark說的, 在GC工作不見得是較差的選擇, 相同的, 進consulting或i-banking也不是每個人的夢想. 我認為top15的學校都夠好, 找工作都不會是問題, 重要的是自己本身目標是否清晰, 找工作的過程中是否積極, 另外就是還要一點運氣囉~

還有就是, 大家可能會覺得國際學生平均表現(拿到offer的timing和package)一定不如美國學生, 這是事實, 但是差距沒有想像的大. 既然都出國投資自己了, 就不要因為自己是國際學生而妄自菲薄, 不如想辦法把握學校帶給你的機會, 讓自己有機會成為拉高平均的其中一個.

[Jason Lee]

This is exactly what I needed. Thank you for sharing, and congratulations on your success.

Please don’t feel obligated to answer these, but could you be more specific? What types of industries do those students go? What are the sizes of those firms? Small, midsize, or large firms? Geographic area?

Like you mentioned, everyone sets his or her goals and targeted companies before entering MBA programs. For a financial guy, his goal might be working at Citigroup, JPMorgan, or local banks after his MBA degree. For a consulting guy, he might use an MBA degree to find his way at McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group, or family owned firms. We all respect whatever their goals are. However, I am wondering how many Taiwanese students were able to achieve their goals which were set before coming to the US? How many Taiwanese students were able to find their dream jobs they thought in Taiwan? Would you kindly give a percentage? I understand people evaluate and adjust their goals constantly, but would you compared the time when people were in Taiwan and the time when people started their first jobs in the US.

Finally, do you see differences in terms of finding jobs between a Taiwan born and raised guy and a Taiwanese guy who came to the US before age of 18? Are they pretty much the same in the eyes of those US companies?

[MarkHsu]

I will try to address the Finance question:

Darden graduates, like many other top 15 schools that are not M7 + NYU, will in my opinion have a tougher time getting into (big name) banking. I don't believe this is necessarily a reflection of the quality of the school or its students, it's simply the fact that Asia's banking spots are fairly limited.

Specifically Taiwan's banking situation:

IBD/IBK (traditional investment banking): spots are limited because there is not much happening in Taiwan

Equity Research: Banks do hire MBAs but they don't participate in on campus recruiting. To find this type of job, it really doesn't matter if you go to Harvard or Wharton or Darden. You need to be available when an opening arises.

S&T: Last summer, I think there were 5-6 Taiwanese (defined as Taiwanese undergrad) working in HK. As far as I know, I think all were M7 + NYU + Cornell.

PWM: Probably the best opportunity for Taiwanese right now. Drawback is most MBA grads aren't ready to settle into this job right after b school.

Does it matter if you are Taiwanese or an "ABC/little scholar"?

I think an ABC/little scholar is perceived to have the best of both worlds. In HK banking circles, you will see that the ABC/little scholars take a significant number of the banking jobs. In my opinion, there is also a looser tolerance for their educational pedigree.

[Strategy]

This is exactly what I needed. Thank you for sharing, and congratulations on your success.

Please don’t feel obligated to answer these, but could you be more specific? What types of industries do those students go? What are the sizes of those firms? Small, midsize, or large firms? Geographic area?

Like you mentioned, everyone sets his or her goals and targeted companies before entering MBA programs. For a financial guy, his goal might be working at Citigroup, JPMorgan, or local banks after his MBA degree. For a consulting guy, he might use an MBA degree to find his way at McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group, or family owned firms. We all respect whatever their goals are. However, I am wondering how many Taiwanese students were able to achieve their goals which were set before coming to the US? How many Taiwanese students were able to find their dream jobs they thought in Taiwan? Would you kindly give a percentage? I understand people evaluate and adjust their goals constantly, but would you compared the time when people were in Taiwan and the time when people started their first jobs in the US.

Finally, do you see differences in terms of finding jobs between a Taiwan born and raised guy and a Taiwanese guy who came to the US before age of 18? Are they pretty much the same in the eyes of those US companies?

個人覺得Jason的意思,

是想問到底台灣學生成功完成當初post-MBA goal的有幾個.

意思就是說,當初進學校時,

有的人在找summer intern時,focus on consulting,

有的是banking,有的是科技產業sales,

找正職時也是這樣的設定目標,

可是最後找到的又有多少?

很多板上的先進雖然最後都有工作,然後都表現的很愛自己的工作,

但是其中因為consulting,banking等主流產業找不到退而求其次的又有多少?

觀察Jason的文章下來,

有種感覺想戳破商學院一種普遍的現象-虛偽,言不由衷

譬如只進了某家顧問公司,就把他說的多好,其他都不適合我,

或是進了產業,就說沒有要找顧問公司,旅行太多不喜歡,

可是明明當初就找的如火如荼.

[cburger]

我覺得念MBA的好處之一就是你會接觸到各式各樣的人事物而有所啟發
所以我認識的同學(international or domestic)
只有少數人完全沒有改變過自己的post-MBA goal
大部分的人都有因為興趣， 了解或是現實而改變自己的目標

而在找工作的時候， 學校也是強烈建議
在找工作的方向上, 最好有plan A, Plan B, 甚至到C,D,E
如果strategy大認為接受plan B或是之後的選擇， 而最後表現的的很愛自己的工作就是虛偽或言不由衷的話
我相信strategy大一定是從小到大都是一個很有能力而且優秀的人
完全不需要妥協而且有非常明確的目標。
這樣的話即使沒有MBA strategy大也是可以對社會有很多的貢獻

像我這種人就只好學著見人說人話， 見鬼說鬼話來混口飯吃

[schlafen]

全美TOP 15 MBA中，以個案教學法(case method)著名的Darden school of business, University of Virginia即將在台北舉辦經驗分享會！

我們有兩位一年級學生會在年底回到台灣，非常期待跟大家分享我們在Darden第一個學期的生活及學習的經驗，以及我們對Darden, University of Virginia和Charlottesville的感覺。同時我們也樂意分享我們去年申請學校的經驗，以及回答任何有關Darden的問題。現場我們還會邀請畢業的校友與大家互動。
Cheers

我想問一下，Darden的essay為什麼這麼少，三題，每題三百字，
這樣子在adcom的心目中，什麼條件是關鍵呢？

短短一千字真的很少耶，是不是一看不是傳統Darden要的背景就直接丟掉呢？
是不是可以請校友說一下下，謝謝。

[麥香寶]

第一題是500字喔~~我把題目貼進來

1. What matters to you most, both personally and professionally, and how does an MBA relate to these priorities? (500 word maximum) :

2. Please select one word that describes you from the set below and support your
statement using concrete examples. Professionally I am: (a) an innovator. (b) a leader. (c) an entrepreneur. (300 word maximum) :

3. Please choose one phrase that describes you from the set below and support your statement using concrete examples. Professionally I am: (a) involved globally. (b) committed to diversity. (c) socially responsible. (300 word maximum) :

[Strategy]

我覺得念MBA的好處之一就是你會接觸到各式各樣的人事物而有所啟發
所以我認識的同學(international or domestic)
只有少數人完全沒有改變過自己的post-MBA goal
大部分的人都有因為興趣， 了解或是現實而改變自己的目標

而在找工作的時候， 學校也是強烈建議
在找工作的方向上, 最好有plan A, Plan B, 甚至到C,D,E
如果strategy大認為接受plan B或是之後的選擇， 而最後表現的的很愛自己的工作就是虛偽或言不由衷的話
我相信strategy大一定是從小到大都是一個很有能力而且優秀的人
完全不需要妥協而且有非常明確的目標。
這樣的話即使沒有MBA strategy大也是可以對社會有很多的貢獻

像我這種人就只好學著見人說人話， 見鬼說鬼話來混口飯吃

其實這裡只是美洲留學討論區,

不限定MBA吧,我進修的並非商學院的學位,

只是參加討論.

不妨這樣說,我沒完成的目標,像是沒有進自己的理想的學校,

不會去跟人說因為這家學校的EE我比較喜歡,

well,史丹佛的EE就是比你好,

又譬如沒進華頓,我不會去說NYU的財務我很喜歡,

地點比費城好,

我是那種沒進就老實說,人家不收我阿.

找工作時,很想進麥肯錫,

可惜缺臨門一腳,我不會說麥肯錫的人我不喜歡文化不合,

阿就是被ding嘛,

可是商學院學生普遍就是喜歡找理由包裝,

感覺整個教育變成像是在教學生如何包裝BS,

很少聽商學院學生跟人講我的skill set不夠,反應不夠快,

溝通能力不佳,所以沒進管顧,在人前永遠都是公司跟你不合,

文化不合,或是體認產業現實發現不適合自己,

很少是拿到一堆offer後才自覺不適合這行業而放棄,

反倒是一堆沒拿到的反而理由很多.

在下也曾參加過一些商學院說明會,

也知道讀商學院的過程,

所以常常會拿主事者的話來比較她的生涯,暑期工讀,找工作目標等,

常常會發現言不由衷的漏洞.

譬如,一心想做行銷,沒進西北,

進了別家也還不錯的商學院,就說多愛這家學校,

然後說跟西北的學生不太合啦,地點太北太冷不想去啦,

其實大家都心知肚明,又何妨直說,人家不收你嘛.

[cburger]

不好意思在VA的版面離題

不過strategy大教訓的是
他提到的問題其實不單是發生在商學院的學生上
心理學有個理論叫cognitive dissonance (認知失調)
討論的正是這種現象
我會努力面對這種會影響每個人的現象
當一個不BS的社會人士
才不會因我自己的行為而污名了所有念過商學院的同學們

[hsyeng]

Strategy:
同意你部分的說法 我當初也申請了HBS 的確被ding, Darden在我一開始的priority也的確比HBS低, 但是我選校的方式 是申請上了我會想去念的 我就申請, 我的確沒達到我的第一目標 但是來到了"自己選擇"的這個學校, 當然要發現他的優點,盡情的利用,並與人分享, 如果現在問我當初HBS上了我會不會去, 當然還是會!但是如果HBS還是沒上, 我還是會來念Darden. BTW我們學校的確有人上了Tuck選Darden也有上了HBS選Darden的, 當然每個人的criteria不一樣, 並非誰優誰劣, 每個人的選擇都會有自己的理由, 這不應該被拿來當大家argue的論點. 我相信每個學校的同學很少有機會能同時念兩個學校並比較心得 所以我想大家也只是把自己在學校的體驗和心得分享出來罷了

[schlafen]

第一題是500字喔~~我把題目貼進來 :

多謝啊，我有題目了，
但第一題wharton是給1000字，Columbia是給750，
500實在很不夠寫。

我的主要問題是，
Darden 的 essays 字數這麼少，
是不是學校在審件的過程中，essays其實不是太重要，
他們主要是看申請人背景、履歷來決定呢？
因為我並不是所謂 typical 的學生，
所以我會需要比較大篇幅說明我為什麼要念MBA。

但是如果學校本來就喜歡證券分析師、投資銀行小朋友之類的，
那我就不想去浪費錢申請了。
不知道Darden的多元性如何呢？
（當然啦，每家學校的網站都會宣稱自己超多元的！）
謝謝。

[donahue922]

第一題是500字喔~~我把題目貼進來 :

多謝啊，我有題目了，
但第一題wharton是給1000字，Columbia是給750，
500實在很不夠寫。

我的主要問題是，
Darden 的 essays 字數這麼少，
是不是學校在審件的過程中，essays其實不是太重要，
他們主要是看申請人背景、履歷來決定呢？
因為我並不是所謂 typical 的學生，
所以我會需要比較大篇幅說明我為什麼要念MBA。

但是如果學校本來就喜歡證券分析師、投資銀行小朋友之類的，
那我就不想去浪費錢申請了。
不知道Darden的多元性如何呢？
（當然啦，每家學校的網站都會宣稱自己超多元的！）
謝謝。

essay還是很重要的，雖然字數少，問題少，但我想這些問題就是Darden想瞭解你的地方，建議多瞭解學校，根據學校喜歡的特質來寫，至於其他你想表達的，如果我沒記錯的話on-line application中有很多問題Darden給的篇幅空間還蠻大的，盡量找對問題把你想表達的訊息加入。至於多元性，就我的瞭解，Darden錄取的學生背景是還蠻多元的，這就要請Darden校友或學生再補充囉！