請教一下關於MBA畢業後在美國的發展

[zeuss]

各位前輩，

想要請教一下各位在美國讀書與工作的前輩一些經驗與身邊的例子。因為美國的環境也許與台灣不太一樣，我需要各位的看法。

在這個版上拜讀很多前輩的經驗，無論是選校，求學與工作發展，談到MBA的發展多半都會舉出前百大企業，而且多半是以金融服務業為主。 似乎很少看到在科技業發展的經驗。
我本身是理工出身，但是不太適合從事研發 工作也有很長一段時間，所以一直想要往產品管理與規格制訂方面的職務發展（台灣一般稱為 project manager，PM），很多公司的PM有時候是team leader，有時候只負責規格制訂以及與整個產品的管理。 我很想往這方面發展，也希望有一個MBA的學歷在未來的工作上加分，更希望在美國有一點歷練的機會。

在版上常常讀到的經驗是，如果不是前X大的名校，MBA畢業後在美國似乎不太容易找到理想的工作。 但是前輩的經驗多半都是在金融服務業居多。
依我的經歷，如果我的目標只是想在美國工作一陣子，申請理工科系對我比較有利且容易，但是為了拿到工作簽證讓自己去拿一個不需要的學位，似乎是一種浪費。但是拿MBA學位對我又有點陌生，陌生的原因是我在這個版幾乎沒看過相關的經驗（MBA畢業在科技業發展），這種陌生讓我有點卻步。

在美國的就業市場中，怎麼看待MBA的學經驗？ 應該這麼問，如果有一定的理工技術背景，加上一個MBA的學歷，這樣的連結在美國企業的眼中是怎樣的效果？
在台灣，這樣的連結往往與只有技術背景沒有兩樣。
是否有前輩願意分享依下相關的經驗？

[MarkHsu]

Generally speaking, still try to get into the best school possible. This rule applies for almost any industry. As an international student, you need all the help you can get. If I am Google or Intel, why would I want to hire someone who is not even motivated enough to get into a good school, especially when I have to "invest" in a H-1B (work) visa in this person?

I'd say focus on the West Coast schools because that's where the high tech jobs are. Going to a Midwest school like Purdue or UIUC, despite their engineering reputation, is suicide.

You need a whole lot of luck. I don't think you can assume that a PM position is going to be available to a foreigner, not especially in the current US climate that is so anti-immigration. Having technical knowledge alone is not enough. Key to middle managment jobs in America is still superior communication (read bull shitting) skills.

[davidlee0222]

此篇討論或許移至"職場生涯與面試訊息討論"版會更合適
首先選擇生涯方向除了背景能力優勢外 主要是以性格與興趣為主
不一定受到背景限制
因為工作只有一時 事業是一生

PM不論project manager還是product manager
與其說是team leader不如說是coordinator更符合實際運作
collaboration是其中的關鍵區隔
中間牽扯到leadership
高效能的leadership是透明化的溝通與平權合作
大家都想當leader只會分頭馬車又互不退讓沒人想當follower

另外product manager跟project manager有很大區別
有很多企業將這兩個部門項目以矩陣方式建構
product management是marketing & development功能性部門中的靈魂垂直構建
而project management多半是以專案目標導向的橫向跨部門任務管理
在MBA裡的general management或marketing management領域中
project management是一項獨立的專業
也有專業考試認證如PMP或坊間都有專案管理專業書籍可以先行研讀
相當straightforward
MBA課程中也有project management的課程
就是這門專業相當實務且能現學現賣的課程
幾乎任何目標任務都能用專案管理來策劃控管

但重點是生涯方向為什麼會想往project management發展
中間以性格與興趣為出發的動機會是生涯選擇關鍵
有什麼您與生俱來的特長或敏銳性
或是專長能力與使命
會讓您在產品管理或規格制定方向發展

當然就美式商業邏輯 MBA基本上就是在幫Fortune 500大企業在訓練人才
名校效應當然有高度利基 因為越前面的學校越競爭
為什麼跨國企業巨頭們要錄取競爭力未能擠進名校的學生
當然有高度正相關但也不絕對
非名校一樣有很多alumni在世界級企業上班
一樣在學校就在幫世界級企業微軟HP戴爾做顧問專案 一樣讓企業耗資不斐
如何能產出高品質成果滿足要求才是關鍵
不過名校資源與校友網絡會比非名校豐厚會讓發展機會相對容易是一定的
重點是不論是否名校 您如何展現能夠deliver performance的能力特質
以及動機泉源的passion


另外一個很簡單又很現實的問題
為什麼這些美國大頭級企業要取用台灣人而不是美國人
這裡的排他價值為何
只要您能算出錄取您的綜合效益高過您的薪水與工作簽證投資
能夠產出美國人無法提供的價值 完成任務又能符合公司未來發展
沒有找不到工作的道理
可以看看谷歌大中國總監李開復博士也是CMU並非前五名校
但經歷轉折從蘋果SGI到微軟一路殺進谷歌
完整經歷的背後所看到的是IT產業的熱情與獻身
前半經歷幾乎都在美國
在十幾年前大陸還在高度共產 商業走向未明朗的時局
又如何能進入美國大企業在當地提供價值?
除了技術 管理能力 語言 要跟本土老美競爭外
還有性格特質與投身熱誠
這樣的熱誠很難用什麼學歷課程教了就有
到頭來還是個人的生涯哲學才是取決要件

學歷一個加一個要加幾個都行
重點是生涯的走向與個人性格興趣的結合
套句美式生涯管理師常講的話
找到所愛事業能讓您一生豐收又不覺得在工作

[Opeman]

在美國的就業市場中，怎麼看待MBA的學經驗？ 應該這麼問，如果有一定的理工技術背景，加上一個MBA的學歷，這樣的連結在美國企業的眼中是怎樣的效果？

to Zeuss: 結合理工背景與MBA，這樣的經歷美國企業是會給予肯定的。只是回到MARK的觀點，你還是需要一個好學校的MBA去增加你拿到美國工作的機會。

以我為例，因為有半導體四年的工作經驗，再加上學校就業輔導中心的大力幫忙，去年暑期在美國Motorola總部實習，負責策略分析與執行，並順利的獲得正職offer。另外一位之前擔任工程師，後來念Berkeley MBA的朋友，暑期也在Yahoo總部實習。最後一位則是UCLA的MBA，雖然沒有理工背景，但今年畢業後也留在美國Cisco負責行銷企畫。 由此一個好的MBA，對於台灣人想留在高科技產業發展，其實是頗有幫助的。

[zeuss]

非常感謝樓上三位先進的的意見與經驗，說真的，有時候自己悶在家裡想著未來，不如多聽聽別人的經驗，一來可以讓自己瞭解自己思考的盲點，二來可以增加之前沒想過的方向。
也許我不該有拿MBA在美國不容易找到工作，而理工科系比較容易這樣的想法，而是應該去思考拿到這些學位後，我如何讓老闆知道錄取我後對公司有什麼幫助。還有，拿到這些學位對我自己有什麼幫助。

[Wutang]

David,

You are right that Dr. Lee Kai Fu didn't graduated from a top 5 school in the states. However, I thought CMU somehow may have a pretty good reputation in its computer science program already? US news is ranking CMU as the top 1 school in Computer Science for its PhD program. So I was thinking, the top 5 school really varies depending which field u are talking about here. Correct me if I was wrong.

Well, that leads me to the question of should u pick the school based on its overall reputation or the department's reputation? Maybe someone can help me out here.

[Zopper]

李先生唸的CMU在CS方面是一定排前五

還有他小時後就過去美國唸書了

所以 我覺得這例子不是很好

[cburger]

I think a way to think about this issue is to list your priorities. It seems that you want a couple things:

1. Stay in IT industry
2: Change to PM from technical
3: Have US experience

If you have to choose one, what would it be? By doing that you can think about whether MBA is right for you.
To be honest, I think MBA will 'multiply' your value, but at the beginning, if you don't have anything to offer to the employer, it's still very difficult. For example, if your background is IT, and you want to go to consumer product marketing after MBA. It will still be very difficult for you because you have no previous experience in consumer marketing. MBA can only teach you so much in 2 years. All it does is give you the 'chance'. Other than that don't expect MBA to be a cure-all degree.

In my opinion, if your priority is '3', then MBA is not necessary. It's easier to get a technical job rather than an MBA job in US (at least in my experience)
if your priority is '2', then MBA is a good choice, because it will multiply your value, combining with your previous experience.
if your priority is '1' then... you don't need anything XD

[世界和平]

若單純從你的期望來看-想做PM！

我想台灣的電子業應該有很多PM都是從工程師轉職的，其實可以先嘗試丟履歷做類似工作一陣子。除了多瞭解什麼是PM外，也幫你接下來的MBA之路多一些故事或是啟發吧！

[modern]

LKF...他有的不只是專業能力而已

實際接觸他就會知道他更強在另一方面，所以才能在三頭馬車兩頭離開後當那匹獨自領軍的馬兒

至於那是什麼能力，恕我無法在此公開論壇上說明。

粗淺的說，開復更適合在這時候當谷歌中國的領袖，因為他能幫這裡要到足夠成長的資源與權限。這些跟CS PHD倒沒有關係 但跟他過去經驗以及天生的人格特質絕對有關。

谷歌中國不能再犯Ebay在APAC犯過的錯了，
我誠心的希望這首歌能夠繼續唱下去而且唱的很好聽，因為這合唱團裡面有我

[zeuss]

I think a way to think about this issue is to list your priorities. It seems that you want a couple things:

1. Stay in IT industry
2: Change to PM from technical
3: Have US experience

In my opinion, if your priority is '3', then MBA is not necessary. It's easier to get a technical job rather than an MBA job in US (at least in my experience)
if your priority is '2', then MBA is a good choice, because it will multiply your value, combining with your previous experience.
if your priority is '1' then... you don't need anything XD

這位先進說得對，也分析得很仔細
是的，如果我只是想留在IT產業，現在的我已經夠了，無論是現在所在的公司，所擁有的經驗，與年所得

而其實關鍵就在我比較想要的是 2 & 3，而 3 > 2。 前輩說的對，理工科系要在美國找工作相對容易，如果我要的只是美國的工作經驗，選項2並不是必要的。也許選項 2和3對一個沒有身份的國際學生來說，真的是很難兩全吧。 或也許MBA是一個最終的學歷，其實也不見得非得要在現在拿到，也許我該多吸收其他經驗。

很多前輩說的對，努力的申請到好學校，但是也要想清楚自己要的是什麼，當然最重要的還是什麼對自己最有利..

[davidlee0222]

agree with Wutang and Zopper
it's not a good example for this case
CMU is a great school in CS
what I tried to illustrate was that technical background transferred into management circumstance

The major point is that what part of your personality fit your career
where's your long-term destination and why
a technical degree is totally different from a managerial one.
it'll impact your life significantly in this intersection.

almost all Taiwanese study abroads claim they want to have the U.S. experience
but how committed or it's just a dream and backup plan?
you can work in a Chinese restaurant if you don't need #1 & #2 anymore
it's an extreme but real case
some students from low GDP countries really did these jobs
it's also my thai best friend's biggest delimma before he went back his country
if your home market is the ultimate destination
a PM (no matter product manager or project manager) salary in Thailand is even lower than a waiter in the U.S.
and a waiter's salary is almost double than a PM in Thailand
it may often higher than a PM salary in Taiwan if you got good tips.
many graduates from low income countries end up in restaurants in the U.S.

what exact skills do you need futher in technology field toward your ultimate goal?
deeper technical knowledge?
or how to manage a project or even a product development
how does the work breakdown structure impact your project?
what kind of financial model should you use when you have 10 projects in hand but need to kill 5 of them?
what else criteria except financial models should you consider?
how to speed up when you face deadline?
how to coordinate a team
what is MBWA? and why you need that?

at the end of the day
how do you define a "ideal" job for your life?
for some people
enter a big brand is ideal
'cause everyone will recognize your achievement
you don't need to worry about your confidence
for others
big brand might mean you're a nail inside
a PM means you're a bigger nail
entrepreneurship means be your own boss
but you need to worry about tax and reliability of the company

what kind of life you want to live?
why the U.S. experience?
what happened to people studied abroad but went back to home country?
does the U.S. dream really matter?
if yes, why?


if no, why?

[romarrio]

Hi ,
I totally agreed with David about the intension for people to transfer his/her job to PM should come from personality & ultimate goal of carrer instead.
To take a MBA might increase "a little" bit chances for you to get a Project Manager job in USA , but it's almost unlikely for a product marketing job. (Unless you are a M7 MBA , like Opeman 大大)

With regard to the Project Manager candidates searching job in USA , the first thing they will encounter is how to convince employer "How you can drive , incluence , and lead people by English?". Secondly , to swing across multi-functions/departments in USA during your work time is also important. That means you need to understand the way of USA people working , the orgs of USA company , how they deal with their customers and suppliers , and so on.

In my opinions , none of those capabilities are what you can learn through a MBA degree. Do you agree?