OG48-5(實在是太難懂，讓我們一起突破困境)

[davidlee0222]

一到三段一值都講有種東西會direct其他物質的互動(第三段)
最後一段講就是RNA
一旦受精
RNA會啟動
會導引跟他互動的物質
就講histone會受它控制跑進細胞核裡

至少要看到第三篇
小弟考了兩次也沒看到第四篇

[lunar916]

今天讀到這篇文章時真的是沮喪到不行... 想說自己是不是真的那麼笨
上來一看原來這一題還好像挺不簡單的

我在這想問幾各問題說....
我在看文章時,我把第一段分成兩個group的人的看法
1) biologists found that if they separated an invertebrate animal embryo into two parts at an early stage of its life, it would survive and develop as two normal embryos. This led them to believe that the cells in the early embryo are undetermined in the sense that each cell has the potential to develop in a variety of different ways.
2) Later biologists found that the situation was not so simple. It matters in which plane the embryo is cut. If it is cut in a plane different from the one used by the early investigators, it will not form two whole embryos.

如此在做27題時,我把答案D刪掉
因為 the biologists believed that the cells in the early embryo were undetermined 是1) group的人
而答案D說的是2) group的人
我選B,which i think is also true...
不知各位有什麼看法...

-----------

有一各不太懂的觀念就是
我以為說embryo胚胎 指的是有受過精的卵
early embryo 是指過精的卵 (fertilized egg) 的早期
我在做25題時,是以這種想法去刪除C的
如果不是這樣,就如 shihyingho,所說的,C哪裡錯了ㄚ?

我的想法是不是缺了什麼? 可否解釋一下?


-----------

關於問題28,我在做的時候把正確答案A直接消除了ㄟ...
因為問題問 It can be inferred from the passage that the initial production of histones after an egg is fertilized takes place
然後passage說
Paul Gross found that an unfertilized egg contains substances that function as morphogenetic determinants. They are located in the cytoplasm (this is when they are NOT fertilized yet) of the egg cell.

這...... 可解釋一下嗎?

-----------

之前在做經濟題的時候,大衛的水上漂感覺很好用
可是我個人再做這一題時,用水上漂反而會有點不知所措
因為想讀快一點,可是發現讀第一段就幾乎沒跳過東西,心裡會慌
我覺得illuna說的 "說明細節的細節可以跳過....說明主題的細節就千萬要讀 " 這各觀念很重要
看大衛要不要加到你水上漂的理論裡面 (還是你已經加了我不知道 :p)

[best555tw]

27.
早期的biologist認為early embryo是undertermined的，因為可以變成兩個個別的embryo
但最新的biologists發現並非如此，必須要按造早期的biologist分割才會變兩個，如果沒有就不行了
所以他們犯的錯誤是E

而早期的biologist有沒有realize(B)中的這個connection文章沒討論


28. take place是說發生的地方
文章問initial production 是在哪生發生

它是先在cytoplasm產生再move to cell nucleus
因為morphogenetic determinants(maternal messenger RNA’s)是在cytoplasm
而morphogenetic determinants direct the synthesis of histones
所以initial production of histones是在cytoplasm take place

[ustoday]

想了很久
關於25 題 題目要我們infer morphogenetic determinants present in the early embryo

Now investigators think they know at least some of the molecules that act as morphogenetic determinants. in early development. They have been able to show that, in a sense, cell determination begins even before an egg is fertilized

再第三段說找出來是一種substances acts as morphogenetic determinants
第四段說 那種substances 是RAN~
堆論出 some of acts as morphogenetic determinant 一定也有some of others 不是
所以如同選項E說的--present in larger quantities than is necessary for the development of a single individual

不知道我這樣的想法對不對
請告訴我
謝謝

[吳]

回答一下shihyingho&lunar916

想請問一下25題答案C為什麼不對呀?文章是說In the unfertilized egg (=early stage) , the substances are inactive and are not distributed homogeneously (在early stage時MD的性質) . When the egg is fertilized, (=irreversible) the substances become active也就是MD在早期是inactive,fertilized(irreversible)之後就變active.不就跟答案c說的一樣嗎?(MD present in the early embryo are inactive until the embryo cells become irreversibly committed to their final funtion)

fertilize受精 受精卵是受精的卵子
embryo胚胎 胚胎是受精以後發育早期的個體
=>先形成受精卵再著床然後變成胚胎
25.It can be inferred from the passage that the morphogenetic determinants present in the early embryo are(C)inactive until the embryo cells become irreversibly committed to their final function題目就是早期胚胎 所以已經受精過 =>active

另外也許有人跟我一樣連第一二段都看不懂,所以把友人的翻譯貼一下:

這段的意思我覺得是有科學家手賤 ,把胚胎分成兩個結果發現會發育成兩個完整的胚胎,但是後來有科學家認為胚胎要發育成什麼東西 其實在卵受精前就決定好了,應該說細胞要發育成什麼東西受精前就決定好了

意思就是以前的科學家發現把一個胚胎分成兩個 結果竟然可以產生兩個完整的胚胎 , 這讓他們相信 細胞在胚胎發育階段決定往後的發展,但是後來有科學家發現不是這樣 應該沒那麼簡單,細胞有可能在胚胎受精前就決定好以後要發展成什麼種類的細胞

[davidslin]

想請問一下25題答案C為什麼不對呀?文章是說In the unfertilized egg (=early stage) , the substances are inactive and are not distributed homogeneously (在early stage時MD的性質) . When the egg is fertilized, (=irreversible) the substances become active也就是MD在早期是inactive,fertilized(irreversible)之後就變active.不就跟答案c說的一樣嗎?(MD present in the early embryo are inactive until the embryo cells become irreversibly committed to their final funtion)

Studying sea urchins, biologist Paul Gross found that an unfertilized egg contains substances that function as morphogenetic determinants. They are located in the cytoplasm of the egg cell; i.e., in that part of the cell’s protoplasm that lies outside of the nucleus. In the unfertilized egg, the substances are inactive and are not distributed homogeneously. When the egg is fertilized, the substances become active and, presumably, govern the behavior of the genes they interact with. Since the substances are unevenly distributed in the egg, when the fertilized egg divides，, the resulting cells are different from the start and so can be qualitatively different in their own gene activity.
。

The substances that Gross studied are maternal messenger RNA’s --products of certain of the maternal genes. He and other biologists studying a wide variety of organisms have found that these particular RNA’s direct, in large part, the synthesis of histones, a class of proteins that bind to DNA. Once synthesized, the histones move into the cell nucleus, where section of DNA wrap around them to form a structure that resembles beads , or knots , on a string . The beads are DNA segments wrapped around the histones; the string is the intervening DNA . And it is the structure of these beaded DNA strings that guides the fate of the cells in which they are located.


25. It can be inferred from the passage that the morphogenetic determinants present in the early embryo are
(C) inactive until the embryo cells become irreversibly committed to their final function

因為RNA's就是第三段說的物質MD,從紅字的部份可知當卵授精時,RNA's開始活躍,合成histones,histones在進入細胞核中.....然後決定了細胞的命運,
C是說MD不活躍直到細胞不可逆(決定命運)時-->細胞決定命運時MD才活躍,
可是由文中可知道,在細胞決定命運前,MD就開始活躍了(活躍後合成histones.....然後決定細胞命運)

[potatoping]

第一次來這裡討論問題，我是照著 ETS的詳解做出來的整理：

unfertilized egg = substance = morphogenetic development = RNA (in the large part the synthesis of histone)

in(在) ----- cytoplasm of the cell + 當 Egg成熟變成 active

當 Egg is fertilized → substance 才能 active, active 之後 → histone 才能synthesis.....

不過這樣的整理只能回答出28-30題，照著上面的思路，回答後三題一定能做對。至於第25題，真的很難....想不太懂為什麼？

[scujean]

以下是我的翻譯+大衛的改證(藍筆處)

Nearly a century ago, biologists found that if they separated an invertebrate animal embryo into two parts at an early stage of its life, it would survive and develop as two normal embryos. This led them to believe that the cells in the early embryo are undetermined in the sense that each cell has the potential to develop in a variety of different ways. Later biologists found that the situation was not so simple. It matters in which plane the embryo is cut. If it is cut in a plane different from the one used by the early investigators, it will not form two whole embryos.

一個世紀以前，生物學家發現如果她們把無脊椎動物的胚胎分成兩個部分(在該胚胎生命初期)，胚胎會存活且發展成兩個正常胚胎。這讓她們相信早期的胚胎是未確定的，就是每個細胞有不同的發展可能 ，之後，生物學家發現情況不是那麼簡單，從哪個面切會造成不同結果，如果切的平面不同於之前研究者的切的平面，不會行成兩個完整胚胎。
A debate arose over what exactly was happening. Which embryo cells are determined, just when do they-become irreversibly committed to their fates, and what are the “morphogenetic determinants” that tell a cell what to become the debate could not be resolved because no one was able to ask the crucial questions in a form in which they could be pursued productively. Recent discoveries in molecular biology, however, have opened up prospects for a resolution of the debate. Now investigators think they know at least some of the molecules that act as morphogenetic determinants in early development. They have been able to show that, in a sense, cell determination begins even before an egg is fertilized
開啟一個"到底發生什麼事"的爭辯 。(A)哪個胚胎被決定，(B)是在他們變的不可逆的交付給她們的命運時？以及(C)”器官行成的決定因素”告訴細胞要變成什麼？但這爭論不能解決因為沒有人能問倒(A)(B)(C)的關鍵問題。然而，最近在分子生物的發現，已經開啟（爭論的解答）可能性。現在調查家認為她們知道至少一些分子，該分子做為早期發展的”器官行成的決定因素”的角色。他們可以證明細胞的決定甚至是在卵授精前開始。

Studying sea urchins, biologist Paul Gross found that an unfertilized egg contains substances that function as morphogenetic determinants. They are located in the cytoplasm of the egg cell; i.e., in that part of the cell’s protoplasm that lies outside of the nucleus. In the unfertilized egg, the substances are inactive and are not distributed homogeneously. When the egg is fertilized, the substances become active and, presumably, govern the behavior of the genes they interact with. Since the substances are unevenly distributed in the egg, when the fertilized egg divides，, the resulting cells are different from the start and so can be qualitatively different in their own gene activity

生物學家P研究海膽時發現一個未受精的卵含有物質，該物質作用是”器官行成的決定因素”。她們位在卵子的細胞質，亦即，該物質在細胞的原生質，原生質位於細胞核外面。在這未受精的卵裡，這物質是不活耀的且不均勻分佈。當卵授精了，這物質變的活耀，該物質並控制（與其有互動的）基因的行為。因為這物質是不規則的分佈於卵子，當這受精卵分裂，分裂後的卵是不同於開始的卵，所以分裂的卵，就質化的行為面，不同於他原本基因活動


The substances that Gross studied are maternal messenger RNA’s --products of certain of the maternal genes. He and other biologists studying a wide variety of organisms have found that these particular RNA’s direct, in large part, the synthesis of histones, a class of proteins that bind to DNA. Once synthesized, the histones move into the cell nucleus, where section of DNA wrap around them to form a structure that resembles beads(念珠), or knots(節), on a string(繩). The beads are DNA segments wrapped around the histones; the string is the intervening DNA. And it is the structure of these beaded DNA strings that guides the fate of the cells in which they are located

Gross所研究的這物質，是母體遺傳的使者就是RNA’s，RNA’s是某些母體遺傳基因的產物，Gross和其他生物學家，(在研究很多的生物的情況下) ，發現這些特殊的RNA’s指揮histones的合成物，histones的合成物是一種綁住DNA的蛋白質。一旦histones合成了，histones會移到細胞核’裡，在細胞核，DNA的部分包裹細胞核去形成一種（念珠或節在繩上面的）結構。這念珠就是DNA包裹histones的部分，這繩就是介於中間的DNA。念珠狀的DNA鏈的結構，引導"在這些所在位置"的細胞的命運。

聽大衛的建議把部會的文章翻成中文，有錯的地方請指證..謝謝

[davidlee0222]

你會成功的

第三行
in the sense that each cell has the potential to develop in a variety of different ways
in the sense是抽象語意
可以當作沒看到
後面是說有不同的發展可能
不曉得會怎麼發展法

It matters in which plane the embryo is cut.
意思是"從哪個面切會造成不同結果"

A debate arose over what exactly was happening
開啟一個"到底發生什麼事"的爭辯

Which embryo cells are determined(A), just when do they-become irreversibly committed to their fates(B), and what are the “morphogenetic determinants” (that tell a cell what to become)(C) the debate could not be resolved (because no one was able to ask the crucial questions) (in a form in which they could be pursued productively)

A,B,C三個問題無法被debate解釋
因為沒人問到關鍵問題(後面是廢話)

該分子可以(充當)早期發展的”器官行成的決定因素”。
應該是"作為xx的角色"

[davidlee0222]

Studying sea urchins, biologist Paul Gross found that
dangling可以翻做 "生物學家P研究海膽時發現"

第三段第四行not distributed homogeneously
是講不均勻分佈

最後行"品質"上來講不同於他原本基因活動
應該試"就質化的行為面而言"
研究有分量化與質化

最後段第二句有個小細節
講一下不然很難發現
Gross和其他生物學家，研究很多的生物，(並且)發現這些特殊的RNA’s指揮histones的合成物

He and other biologists (studying a wide variety of organisms) have found that these particular RNA’s direct, in large part, the synthesis of histones, a class of proteins that bind to DNA.

studying分辭構句是次要結構
只是補述他們在什麼狀態之下
這些生物學家再"研究一堆blablabla的狀況下"-- 發現xxx

最後句
引導細胞的命運，該結構位於細胞裡
應該翻做引導"在這些所在位置"的細胞的命運

[davidlee0222]

個人認為翻的很好
可以把翻譯的過程心得分享一下
應該有不少體會
在看看哪裡需要改進

[scujean]

可以把翻譯的過程心得分享一下
應該有不少體會
在看看哪裡需要改進

本來是以為多看幾便文章，就跟翻譯文章有一樣的效果，不過我發現我看第2遍，似乎都与第一遍看到差不多的東西，就決定把整篇翻出來..
翻完發現，有幾個單字，之前看，都一直誤解他的意思..，現在才真的把意思弄清楚
不過因為是涉及專業的文章，即使都翻成中文，看到中文了，還是對整篇文章有一點點模糊的感覺

[davidlee0222]

嗯
相當好的開始
翻的時候有沒有發現大腦思考經過了一些之前沒經過的地方
會有模糊感是因為英文有抽象句意
很多東西沒辦法照翻成中文的
還有因為用中文思考
所以會慢 而且要轉換
練久了就會習慣用英文思考

加油
再翻個幾篇會有大幅進步
不一定要全番
翻段落也行

[chiaowin]

我第一遍看就看了好久,最後終於搞懂每ㄧ題在幹嘛!
今天看了第2遍,居然又搞不懂了~~氣死!!

我覺得最笨的地方是明明有中文翻譯還是不很懂,索性自己翻起來(嗚~~花了我好多時間~~)

請各位幫指出有沒有扭曲本文的意思

將近一個世紀以前,生物學家發現如果他們把無脊椎動物的早期胚胎切成兩半,這兩半不但可以生存還可以各自發展, 這讓他們相信早期的胚胎還未被決定他的每個細胞, 而每個細胞都有可能有不同的發展方式. 後來一些生物學家發現情況並沒有那麼簡單, 若是早期的研究切以不同的胚胎面則胚胎將無法發展成2個胚胎
“到底發生了什麼事” 這個爭論被提出:哪一個胚胎細胞被決定? 是在當他們被決定下無法變更的命運的時候嗎? 以及什麼是決定細胞要變成什麼樣子的“型態決定因素”? 但是,這個爭論無法解決,因為沒人有辦法追根究底的問出決定性的問題. 然而,最近分子生物學的新發現已開啟了解決這個爭議的觀點. 現今的研究學者認為至少有數個分子在早期的發育中扮演著”形體決定因素”的角色. 這些研究學者認為他們已經指出在卵還未受精前細胞就已經開始被決定了
Paul Gross在研究海膽的時候發現未受精的卵包含著類似”型態決定因素”作用的物質. 這種物質位於卵細胞的細胞質中;換言之,這種物質在細胞核之外的細胞原生質的那部份. 這些物質在未受精卵中對卵無影響及分散不均. 當卵授精時,這些物質變的很活耀且據推測這些物質支配著跟他們相互作用的基因的行為. 因為這些物質在卵中分布不均,因此當受精卵分裂時,產生的細胞跟他一開始的形體不同,所以這些物質本身的基因行為本質上可以是很不同的
這些Gross研究的物質是母體的傳遞物質RNA’s(RNA’s 是母體基因的所產生的物質)Gross和其他研究廣泛生物體品種的生物學家已經發現這些特定的RAN’s支配著組織蛋白的合成物(一種跟DNA黏在一起的蛋白質). ㄧ旦組織蛋白開始合成,組織蛋白就會跑到細胞核裡面(細胞核為DNA的一部分,這部份將組織蛋白包住是為了要形成一個可組成beads, or knots, on a string). Beads是DNA包住組織蛋白的那部份;strings是介於中間的DNA. 以及beaded DNA string 的組織就是左右細胞該落於哪的命運的東西


好難懂~~這一提比較難吧!!花這麼多時間處理他會不會很浪費時間阿!!
氣~~

[applepeko]

請問11th的OG有這篇嗎???