Choosing an MBA program--a primer

[MarkHsu]

Despite the availability of information on the Internet, I still find Taiwanese students are still at a loss when choosing an MBA program.

There are various publications ranking business school, but I would suggest sticking with Business Week and the Financial Times. Also, I'd say the rankings (as perceived by recruiters) do not change with time.

Basically, I'd divide the US schools into three groups:

I. HBS/Stanford/Wharton/Kellogg/Columbia/MIT/Chicago
II. Berkeley, Duke, Cornell, Yale, UCLA, Tuck, Michigan, NYU, Virginia
III CMU/UNC/Emory/USC/Austin

On the bubble: Georgetown/Indiana/Olin

Finance Schools (If you want to work in Asia)
1. Wharton 2. Chicago 3.Columbia 4. NYU 5. MIT
There is no doubt in my mind that Wharton is the #1 school if you want to do Finance in Asia. It seems to me that half of the people in investment banking in HK are from Wharton.

Based on my observations, finance in Asia is very prestige driven so if your interest is in finance, your best option is to go to the "core" finance schools.

Consulting
To get into consulting, shoot for groups I & II. I don't think consulting is as picky as investment banks. It seems to me that consulting firms value "raw intelligence" more than past experience. I am not saying that to work in IB you don't need to be smart, but not having prior experience in IB/finance is a definite liability.

Corporate (staying in the US):
I'd say that if your intention is to stay in the US, then almost any of the aforementioned schools would fit your needs. To stay in the US, you'd (most likely) need to accept a middle/back office role.

If the three career paths don't sound appealing to you, you gotta seriously reconsider why you want to spend so much money on an MBA.

[woodie]

the rankings (as perceived by recruiters) do not change with time.

Basically, I'd divide the US schools into three groups:

I. HBS/Stanford/Wharton/Kellogg/Columbia/MIT/Chicago
II. Berkeley, Duke, Cornell, Yale, UCLA, Tuck, Michigan, NYU, Virginia

I do not agree with part of your thought. The recruiters' perception will change!! Michigan was on the top list before. The real difference between these schools from my thought is H/S (W?) and others. For job searching, it depends on personal background and characters.

The application to top schools might be a luck draw. Some Taiwanese turned down so-called M7(as your I category) and went for other schools.

I'll recommend choosing school by fit as possible as you can, not only just by ranks.

[whoopsnow]

Allow me to add some suggestions:

1. Most importantly, you need to consider whether this school CARES about you as an international student. Is that school providing any service continually and particularly for international students throughout your two year education? Does that school not only recognize an international student's disadvantage of obtaining a job in the US, but also help you solve the problem, maybe by creating more opportunities for you?

2. Don't lock yourself in terms of which industry you'd like to work at post MBA. You will have choices (if your school is good enough, which many a times cannot be observed by rankings), and they are not necessarily only finance, consulting, or IB. Does your school encourage you and open as many doors for you as possible to different industries other than to just banking/consulting/IB?

3. Will you feel happy during the two years? Note that happy time doesn't just mean getting drunk. Does your school bring you opportunities that make you feel life is meaningful even though that means you'd be like crazy busy? These opportunities can be leadership in student organizations, team projects, or even charity works.

The bottom line is, try consider everything for YOURSELF. If you see a school has performed well in sending students to IB last year so you decide to go to that school without doing some research for whether that school's services/network/location/etc fit your OWN particular interests, you'd feel sorry two years after.

The above homework is probably not something you can accomplish by only surfing the internet. Ask questions. I encourage everyone to talk to current students, administration staff, and career center staff before you decide which school to attend. You'll get the feeling pretty soon.

In this sense, rankings or groupings are not as important any more.

[MarkHsu]

Again, this is exactly what I mean by the "blind leading the blind."

Back it up with some stats. I think we are open-minded to hear intelligent thought here.

If you are making the claim that Michigan being ranked #1 changes a recruiter's perception then you are extremely naive.

Re: Fit
Fit is the bullshit that schools feed you. Till this day, I haven't met anyone who has had a bad MBA experience. But, I have met a lot of jobless MBAs.

[woodie]

Again, this is exactly what I mean by the "blind leading the blind."

Back it up with some stats. I think we are open-minded to hear intelligent thought here.

If you are making the claim that Michigan being ranked #1 changes a recruiter's perception then you are extremely naive.

Re: Fit
Fit is the bullshit that schools feed you. Till this day, I haven't met anyone who has had a bad MBA experience. But, I have met a lot of jobless MBAs.

Ha...So you think the recruiters will always choose M7 instead Michigan or other top schools only by your perception. That's also bullshit. I am not trying bashing M7 to lift other elite schools. They are all great. MBA is not only a degree but also TWO YEAR life. I do know ppl in bulge bracket and consulting co.. Some of them do have the perception you mentioned...but NOT ALL. You must be the traditional Asian. Everything is ranking. You can make more ppl be attracted in your business-MBA consultancy and send them to top schools with violating honor code. It's not my business.
Again, I just can agree part of your comment.
Believe or not, the World would not only follow one rule. That's it. I am done with this topic.

[Allenr]

Again, this is exactly what I mean by the "blind leading the blind."

Back it up with some stats. I think we are open-minded to hear intelligent thought here.

If you are making the claim that Michigan being ranked #1 changes a recruiter's perception then you are extremely naive.

Re: Fit
Fit is the bullshit that schools feed you. Till this day, I haven't met anyone who has had a bad MBA experience. But, I have met a lot of jobless MBAs.

Looks like I have to say something as well since my school is in question.

1. Now, Michigan is NOT considered top-tier by most people, and I agree that being ranked #1 in WSJ won't help a lot. However, your arguement that "perception won't change with time" does not make sense because, taking Michgan as an example again, the school was recognized top tier 10~15 years ago (the BW rankings, which you believe in, would help you realize this). On ther other hand, MIT, a school that I respect, was far from being considered top tier back in 1995. I am not interested in bragging our history, but certainly things can change in the future.

2. As for the "recruiters' perception", I do agree with you regarding that in IB and Consulting in Asia. However, in the States things are somewhat different. For instance, the company I am in is considered one of the best companies to work for, and it sets Michigan, MIT, and CMU as its core schools, while it does hire some talents from the "M7." In addition, I am not taking and will not take a "back-office" position.

3. As for fit. It is correct to say seldom (not never) had we heard an MBA complaining "bad MBA experience." Nonetheless, your can not refute the possibility this person may get better experience had he/she attended another school.

4. Okay. let's talk about statistics. Given your undertaking, I believe you have seen way more cases than I have. However, the fundemental questions here are: Do you have enough cases to get proper sampling? Would you provide us with something more than mean, 80% percentile, etc. In other words, anything less sophisticated than a multiple-regression analysis, based on well-rounded sampling, will not look better to me than the street wise because the true corelation between MBA education and career is much much more sophisticated than any regression model you can conceive.

5. Well, let's say now we do have a simple "statistic ", which may read like this : 90% of AAA school graduates who want a IB/Consulting job get the job, while only 10% of BBB school graduates who want the equivalent jobs get it. Arguably, AAA school is a safe bet if you really want a IB/Consulting job, and I won't disagree with that. But, what if someone does not need a safe bet? What is he/she can be the top 10% student in BBB school? The truth is, 10% seems pretty safe for me, for it is less than a control limit of 2 sigmas.

Last, as cliche as it sounds, I will argue that you should not apply stats to everyone, for each of us is an unique individual. When it comes to top MBAs, I have reason to belive that we should be more confident in ourselves than are the common. After all, from the moment I decided to apply for a elite b-school, I know I don't want to fall in the "normal group" of any stats. For those who are consevative and risk-averse (an thus good materials for IB/Consulting) and really believe in stats, rankings, etc, I will recommend them to leverage your service

[pigpig1106]

Again, this is exactly what I mean by the "blind leading the blind."

Back it up with some stats. I think we are open-minded to hear intelligent thought here.

If you are making the claim that Michigan being ranked #1 changes a recruiter's perception then you are extremely naive.

Re: Fit
Fit is the bullshit that schools feed you. Till this day, I haven't met anyone who has had a bad MBA experience. But, I have met a lot of jobless MBAs.

ERRR....I disagree with the fit part..

I have a friends graduated from Harvard MBA...She turns down Kellogg offer for Harvard. But you know what....SHE HATES IT..SHE HATES HER SCHOOL..(no offense to Harvard grad..i just want to tell a story of not fitting in..) Cause her personality does not fit into the ultra competitive environment at all. And most of her classmates are cut-throat kind of IBanker and Mgmt consultant while she is a very very friendly and disarming marketing girl. So it ends up she didn't make any close friends there. Instead, she made lots of friends from Kellogg during the time and they are great networks and friends of her till now..
In fact, she became on of the JOBLESS MBA u mentioned for serveral months after graduation. Since she got too much peer pressure of getting into IB/MC/PE to sign a fat contract, she applied the wrong industry that does not fit her. It is after months of painfulness, she finanly turned to apply job that she loves. And she does great now ! So..Is Ranking the only matter to your job search? I guess not ^^

I agree TOP MBA always provide one better opportunities and really open the door for one than other. It should be eye-opening. But "" AMONG THE SAME LEVEL"" one have to find the FIT.

Investing 2 years, giving up current jobs, spending million NTD is not something that can be explained simply by ranking..That's a bit too narrow-minded, short-sighted and shallow.

However, it might be reasonable for you, a adm. consultant, to think that way. Cause you are doing business here. This is you ""career "". What you make for living. But for people applying MBA, this is their ""life"". So i encourage people here try to think beyond and deeper than a adm. consultant does. I am not accusing adm. consultants suck...But the reality is. Adm. consultants are just working. Even though they take pride in what they do and excel in it. They are still just working. They don't have the time to think that thoroughly for you. Neither do they need to care about what you really value in life. (Maybe you value experiencing life and doing what you love more than getting a shit load of money from a IB/MC right after MBA)

[MarkHsu]

Finally some intelligent discussion = )

I agree with most of the points you guys mention here. Believe me, I have been through the process myself.

The problem that I am trying address is aligning one's goals with school choice, which I don't see enough in Taiwan.

I always advocate (for those who care to listen) that there is an alternative to an MBA, that is NOT ATTENDING at all. I am sure you all will agree that there are many Taiwanese who would have been better off not attending an MBA. (My argument here is that for NT 4-5 million and 2 years time, you can find other ways to improve English and gain overseas exposure.)

Re: the HBS/Kellogg example about fit
I think you misunderstood my point on fit (or it could be that I just didn't explain it carefully enough) and you offer a really great example. I think before you can figure out fit, you gotta figure out "what you want" out of an MBA first, which is my whole point of starting this thread.

Taiwanese students (excuse the generalization here) are greedy. They want everything. They want a job that's easy, that they will enjoy and that pays will. Obvisously, life doesn't work like that.

The point I am making is that those who get an MBA are by nature competitive, driven, sometimes to the point of being overbearing. As the applicant you have to figure out if this is what you want. I believe this is the case at every school and the difference lies in degrees of competitiveness (or assholeness).

Lastly, I am not here to debate the merit of schools. For those who know me, you all know that I think of an MBA as a branding event anyways.

Obviously, Michigan is a great school and I know its graduates do very well. (Same Zell, one of America's richest man and perhaps the leading real estate investor of his time is a Wolverine.) Apologizes for getting Michigan into this "cross fire."

The misalignment of goals I see often cross several tiers. Wanting to do equity research at a bulge bracket by getting a MSF from UIUC or wanting to do consulting by attending say some no-name school are examples that I see.

[lunar916]

err..
can you summarize your point in 1 sentence?

[Jade]

err..
can you summarize your point in 1 sentence?

I guess what he means, and perhaps the real essence of this whole thread, is that “figure out what you really want before deciding where you’d go”--
if one has strong desire for a fancy and highly competitive job that pays well, like IB/MC/consulting, then he or she will have better chances to do so if (s)he is from one of the first-tier elite schools.
However, if one just wants a happy life, doing a normal job (that “fits” her laid-back personality) and getting reasonable pay, then there is no need to crowd herself into such an elite school. Doing so will only drives her crazy.

So, for those who really wants those fancy jobs and don’t mind the tight schedule and insanely competitive surroundings, those first-tire schools are definitely their
best “fit”. However, for those who are not this type of person, talking about fitness means not to focus on ranking but on the unique trait of each school.

I have never been an MBA applicant myself, but I am a PhD student in the business school; I’ve seen, and personally know, many MBA students from various schools. And the above statement not only applies to MBA students, but equally applicable to doctoral students as well.
I go to a school which is not too competitive and makes me really enjoy my studies, and I know that I would not be so happy if I had gone to those most elite research schools. However, I also realize that I will have very slim chance of landing a faculty job in such universities as Harvard, Northwestern, Stanford, Columbia, U Penn,
Chicago or Berkeley afterwards, because they only want candidates who graduate from schools that are comparable with their own. But that’s totally fine with me, since I would be happy as long as somebody pays me for doing the research that I’m interested in.

So, in one word, all depends on what you really want.

[MarkHsu]

Let's revisit this thread now....

Now that most yr 2's are graduating & yr 1s are concluding their first year, I am curious if Woodie if you still feel the same.

How's Michigan doing this year in terms of placement?