[MBA選校]Cornell U Johnson v.s Inadian U Kelley~請大家多給一點意見

[betty145cyt]

[選校]Cornell U - Johnson Business School v.s Inadian U - Kelley Business School

先說一下我的背景.
GMAT : 700+
TOEFL: 105+ (口說未達25)
GPA: 3.5+
工作經驗:一般中小企業2years
家庭背景:沒有很硬的後台或靠山.平常的小戶人家

這兩家都是我當初很想上而且覺得會上的機率很低的學校
因為覺得自己工作經驗和社會歷練不是很強.
我都丟第一輪的申請.覺得可以增加一點申請上的機率.
大約在12月中收到Cornell的Offer.當初很開心.而且幾乎是100%決定要去唸的.雖然我獎學金是W/L四月才會知道有沒有獎
畢竟Cornell算是我申請的學校中.排名和知名度算前兩名的.而且我本身也還蠻喜歡這間學校的.
這間也算是我申請名單中Dream school之一.但其實我後來想想.申請他只是單純喜歡.加上知名度很高
覺得不管是呆在美國還是回台灣.大部分的企業都聽過這間學校
事實上Cornell的強項算是Finanace.和我未來想走的Marketing或是Brand Management不同
想請問如果有Cornell的走Marketing學長姐看到此帖.可否說說在Cornell走Marketing的學生所得到的資源會不會受到局限
另外我知道國際學生想在美國得到Marketing的相關工作難度很高.因為語言能力和文化上的差異
那如果我回台灣發展的話.出入如何?
另外近年Johnson MBA的台灣學生有逐漸減少的跡象.去年只有兩個.倒是大陸學生瞬間增加很多
我今年看CD第一輪申請上的大陸學生就已經有7~9個了.台灣學生現在有幾個人上了呢??
有上的請寫留訊息給我.可以互相交流交流

上週收到Indiana U的offer後.就開始煩惱了.因為當初撇開我申請的兩家Dream School外
我最想上的就是Kelley了吧!仔細研究過他的課程和運作的方式.真的很喜歡這間學校
加上學校的強項是Marketing和Brand Management.和我未來的規劃是一樣的
這點讓我很心動.地點來說Ithaca和Bloomington都是大學城.地點都不算是城市
找intern或工作上的便利好像差不多.我先看了傷咖所有Cornell和Indiana的帖子
其中說道Cornell雖然地點不佳.但是很多公司會到校園招募學生.Indiana也是.尤其視消費性產品的公司
因為Indiana的Marketing program很有名.在業界的聲名很不錯.所以公司還是會去學校招募學生
這樣看來地點兩個似乎差不多? 如果對於此點有其他看法的人.歡迎說出自己的看法.我很想多了解

其實我覺得這兩間的差別比較大的大概是台灣的知名度吧.因為其實從排名看來.
Cornell約17. Indiana是22好像.差別並不大.但是回台灣的發展就可能有很大的差別
不知道台灣的企業對Kelley的了解以及愛好程度如何?

再來就是有點一點讓我很擔心的.就是自己的能力吧!!覺得自己到Cornell念可能會唸的很辛苦
因為週遭都是很強的人.而且大家工作經驗都很強的樣子.覺得自己可能會被排擠會很難融入
相對之下.不是說Kelley的MBA program很簡單.但是整體的環境和學生的關係給我感覺比較Close
加上不算是很東岸的學校.faulty和學生會讓我覺得比較friendly.感覺自己可以調適自己的比較好
我知道這是個很不重要的點.要去念MBA的人不應該這麼沒信心.但是這關係到我未來兩年是不是能夠念的開心一點
雖然兩家的課業都很忙碌.但心理上可能不會這麼緊繃.我現在真的很難下決定

請大家多給點意見.替我解惑.不管是我有講到的點或是我沒考慮到的點都可以提出來講
另外如果有申請上2010 Cornell MBA或Indiana MBA的學生.也請留訊息給我.大家可以交換一點意見
謝謝大家的幫忙!!

[crossover45]

First of all, congrats on your offers from two top b schools.

From the standpoint of reputation, alum network and recruiter profile, Cornell definitely has more advantage over Kelley. And those criteria are what you really need to think about before paying US$100K+ for your education.

A MBA degree is not just a ladder to your dream job. It is a tag that you have to carry for the rest of your life. It is a brand image that you will be perceived. It is a life time retwork and resources that you will be involved.

How many people will stay with their first post-MBA job/industry/function for their entire career? Even though Kelley looks stronger in marketing than Cornell (although I don't think so because top b schools are very well-developed in general), Cornell can open more doors for you whenever you consider a switch in your career in the future. I don't know how strong your passion is in a marketing career, but in my case I'm passionate for consulting before b school and I'm doing consulting after b school. However, I am not sure whether I will love to do consulting 10 years later.

Finally, I don't think most of the recruiters and general public put Cornell and Kelley on the same level just because one is ranked 17th and the other is 22nd. It is Ivy league school v.s. non-Ivy league school. Period.

I would strongly suggest you talk to current students and alum of both schools, especially those who are pursuing a marketing career. Try to understand what level of support and difficulties that they have in the job hunting process. Don't just believe placement numbers on the website as they are more relevent for the American, not international students.

[betty145cyt]

First of all、congrats on your offers from two top b schools.

From the standpoint of reputation、alum network and recruiter profile、Cornell definitely has more advantage over Kelley. And those criteria are what you really need to think about before paying US$100K+ for your education.

A MBA degree is not just a ladder to your dream job. It is a tag that you have to carry for the rest of your life. It is a brand image that you will be perceived. It is a life time retwork and resources that you will be involved.

How many people will stay with their first post-MBA job/industry/function for their entire career? Even though Kelley looks stronger in marketing than Cornell (although I don't think so because top b schools are very well-developed in general)、Cornell can open more doors for you whenever you consider a switch in your career in the future. I don't know how strong your passion is in a marketing career、but in my case I'm passionate for consulting before b school and I'm doing consulting after b school. However、I am not sure whether I will love to do consulting 10 years later.

Finally、I don't think most of the recruiters and general public put Cornell and Kelley on the same level just because one is ranked 17th and the other is 22nd. It is Ivy league school v.s. non-Ivy league school. Period.

I would strongly suggest you talk to current students and alum of both schools、especially those who are pursuing a marketing career. Try to understand what level of support and difficulties that they have in the job hunting process. Don't just believe placement numbers on the website as they are more relevent for the American、not international students.

To crossover45,

Thanks for sharing your point of view regarding! Your suggestion really helps me to think deeply about my final decision.
Maybe I did put too much of my attention on finding a great first post-MBA job and it shouldn't be the only thing that I expect to perceive during my MBA. I'm trying to find so cornell alum and have a real talk with them to better understand the program. Thanks again!

[davidlee0222]

先恭喜樓主拿到兩家offer
小弟08年底曾去過康乃爾走訪一趟
兩家都有熟人在念 有的已經畢業
當初他們入學也都是兩三年經驗 AT七字頭 這樣的條件入學大略是位於平均值
不過樓主資歷稍淺 對於課程的學習領悟可能會打折扣

幾個重點
find your career focus, program fitting, and leadership attitude
不過主要要先對幾項myth澄清
首先是其實這兩間學校在美國僱主心中並不算絕對的top school
就商學院而言 以小弟在NSHMBA擔任官方career consultant的經驗
也並沒有發現有是否Ivy League的區別 這個現象跟美國商界輿論一致(可從各大商業報章雜誌提及各商學院時看出)
各校也有各校的強項跟職場網絡
而關於各校general management的well-roundedness
像其實Cornell相當精心策劃的Breath Concentrations跟Depth Concentrations
其實反映出Johnson School並沒有包含全方位的general management
而是重點式的加深固有的consulting跟finance強項
反而是Kelley的綜合管理面向比較均勻完整
而除了各校強項跟資源差異之外
校名唯一有的差異就是學生的general competitiveness會因排名而逐校排下
不過兩校的排名差異並不大
地點也都不怎樣 校名強度都能吸引雇主上門徵才
不然就是要自己去像NSHMBA這樣的大型徵才會自行求職
因此也沒有太大差異

不過有沒有general management對樓主來說並不是重點
畢竟MBA念完六十幾學分總共大約二十三四門課 扣掉一半必修
大概只有大約十門出頭的課可以培養畢業後的生涯競爭力
尤其樓主只有兩年經驗 因此career focus至關重要
由於樓主指出想走marketing路線
只要做個相當簡單的課程比對就可以發現Kelley的strategic marketing management的課程明顯優於Cornell Johnson
有別於Johnson將課程安排在執行 Kelley則兼顧策略性跟立體性 是較為高階的行銷策略管理
從行銷最終目的的品牌資產(這門最關鍵的課Johnson就沒有) 到全方位策略, 到執行面的定價跟Advertising & Promotion都相當完整
而樓上的Crossover說的對
Cornell的focus在財務
點入Depth Concentration Course Details就會發現行銷課跟財務課根本小巫見大巫
雖說Johnson有依照行銷路線Consumer Goods, Industrial, Ad & Research
但內容多偏執行面
完整性跟策略性都偏不足
不過這些還要看樓主所說的行銷是指哪些範疇
行銷領域非常廣大 找到具體的focus才能選擇
然而話說回來 簡單看一下employment statistics (Johnson的09年report還沒出來)
從Kelley 09年42% marketing function jobs整整高出08年Cornell 18% marketing function 二十幾個百分點
很明顯可以知道如果要念marketing的話哪邊network跟recources多

剩下的就是school name跟leadership attitude
首先是how school name really matters是從recruiter perspective in the industry出發
校名只能secure interview opportunity 讓你拿到一個面試
後面的完全靠個人實力過關斬將
完全看個人在兩年中所做的學習與練習
而生涯經營靠個人
不會只因為學校頒給你一張證書而決定未來成敗

再來就是leadership attitude
能不能成為leader不是看哪邊競爭少哪邊語言文化差異少
而是看個人"刻意練習"的結果 (可參考近日新書"我比別人更認真")
否則以小弟AT,托福,學校排名都比樓主低的狀況
照理說不可能成為美國生涯管理公司的經理
也不可能當上美國最大MBA徵才會NSHMBA的 Official Career consultant
更別說處理來自超級名校 賓大,西北,史丹佛老外的求職諮詢
或是來自印度,摩洛哥,美國,韓國,日本,泰國,西班牙,法國,保加利亞等個案

既然學校已經同意讓樓主入學
就應該拿出該有的胸襟跟氣度
雖千萬人吾往矣
別人強就追上去
也把自己的優勢淋漓盡致的展現
人十能之己百之
並且不要把格局做小了只想著回台灣躲起來
台灣市場這麼小
要就做全球市場
或是把台灣市場做到世界級水準
才是名校該有的氣度
不然就算掛個名校名牌回來 也只是被人說是夾著尾巴回來的

而不要把台灣的雇主當笨蛋 尤其是如果想進MNC的話
這些雇主對產業及學界的專業了解遠遠超過普遍台灣MBA申請人或畢業生的想像
不會笨到只因為一個是康乃爾一個是印地安納就做論斷

順帶一提
兩岸錄取消長幾乎無任何相互關聯
各申請人競爭力跟強項貢獻各有差異
而學校錄取學生的目的與需求也年年轉變
錄取人數變多變少不一定是學校策略
多半時候是因為申請人並不qualify

有興趣可以google小弟的文章或布洛格
絕大多數申請或就業的問題都已有完整回答

[davidlee0222]

關於樓上Crossover兄對於consulting career的猶疑
可以從生涯三趨力: Enthusiasm, Personality,及 Professional Capability的順序性來找出
成功照著興趣走
依照彼得杜拉克的說法
最有效方法的叫作"Feedback Analysis" (坊間許多本杜拉克的叢書中 其實可以常常看到這個名詞重複出現)
也是小弟在NSHMBA上替頂尖MBA求職生諮詢最主要的工具
回想當年初衷
然後將一年一年實際的工作實績與能力拿來跟當初比對
很容易就能發現成就動機跟能力的演進差異
會發現多半短期能力強容易上手的東西 在長期來看由於興趣缺缺而產生停滯現象
而多半看似情勢與現實的考量 其實當有系統的列在紙上就會發現多半都是自我設限
透過正向思考及刻意練習
並將已經具備的經驗優勢提升為transformable skills
就能將既有優勢逐步轉入興趣領域
這些生涯選擇與經營可以從精典生涯管理書"What Color is Your Parachute?"中找到

[crossover45]

Points are well taken. Just wanted to clarify my thoughts based on my personal experience.
I would hestitate to agree with the following comments:

就商學院而言 以小弟在NSHMBA擔任官方career consultant的經驗
也並沒有發現有是否Ivy League的區別 這個現象跟美國商界輿論一致

I have interviewed with some top tier management consulting firms and investment banks in the past few years. Whether you have an Ivy stamp on your resume really makes a differece to some of the recruiters, especially when they are screening resumes and picking one candidate over the other (it is more obvious in banking industry in Asia). A lot of time the Ivy brand shows only that the candidate is "safer", "speaking the same language with other folks in the office", and can be put on the table to impress their clients in order to charge higher fees.

I've attended NSHMBA in 2008 and I observed that top tier management consulting firms and investment banks don't really recruit in this job fair. (They have their own campus recruiting process. Putting a table in NSHMBA may just want to show their support of minorities)Therefore, it might be less significant as to whether you're "Ivy" or not in that occasion. However, it is somewhat misleading to neglect the "open door" effect that Ivy can bring to the table in certain cases.

[ccuturandot]

I agree with the "open door" effect !

Cornell performs well in many fileds, not just in finance / banking. Per personal experience 3 yrs ago when I looked for the job in Bay Area, I did get many help from Cornellians. Are they all from Johnson school ? No, but they are all called Cornellians. They all perform well in many industries / corporations. Do not ignore their power !

I met a CEO of the famous VC from TW ( He gave the speech to our social club in Bay Area). He is the Phd from Cornell law school. We had many mutual topics to talk, of course we had very good converstion that time. He also asked me the business card and we kept contact until now. This is a good example about the "open-door" effect.

What you learn in ur two year MBA program might decide your ability present in front of the interviewers. But, first , u need to pass the resume screening. If u can not open the door, what could you do ? I believe that we all experienced this. This is cliche, but realistic. I also discussed with many managers about how they select the candidates for interviews. They do have their pocket lists. ( but not just limit to the top school, some might be just the local schools which have the good relationship with them ) Especially in IB / Consuling industry, u can see how significant it is ! For marketing field, I can not provide you the correct answer, u might beed to look for the answer by yourself......But do not just focus on your 1st post-MBA job...think about ur next , next next job, or ur own business in the future.

Maybe your 1st priority of your MBA life is not about the career. If so , I believe you have your own reasons to choose what you want - just remember to choose what you like and listen more voice in your mind.

[MarkHsu]

I think people are too nice on this board. Perhaps I am a bit older and can get away with putting things in simpler, blunter terms...

You'd be stupid to choose Indiana over Cornell. Anyone who tells you to choose Indiana over Cornell is also dumb.

[Jason Lee]

Everyone has pointed out very good points. In the end, it has come down to the bragging rights. Indeed, most people tend to think that Ivy is greater than Big Ten and that similarly, Cornell is greater than Indiana. I hate to admit this, but I incline to most people's views on this matter.

Nevertheless, I think we have gone too far in terms of defining whether someone could be successful solely based on the fact of which school he or she attends. Would the founders of Microsoft or Google be better off had they completed their degrees at Harvard or Standard respectively? By definition, before accepting an honorary doctoral degree, Bill Gates had only a high school diploma. Furthermore, how many fortune 500 CEOs hold MBA degrees from Magic 7 despite the fact that Magic 7 produces more MBA degrees than the rest of the top 25 schools combined.

The story tells us that although a school could somehow help you in your career path, a school does not define who you are. The most important thing is what you are capable of accomplishing. In our case, obviously our original writer has demonstrated that he or she possesses such abilities. Consequently, regardless of which school the original writer finally decides to attend, I believe that he or she could overcome any obstacles.

Fit is not a new term in this forum anymore. I believe in the end, the writer should try to discover either Indiana or Cornell will fit and satisfy the most to his or her personal and as well as her professional needs.

[linyenfan]

選哪間是個人意願
畢業後回台灣還是在美國工作也是個人意願

怎麼總是有人覺得畢業回台灣就是夾著尾巴回台灣...奇怪的論點